When does Fresh Expression become 'church'

[WV]

We have just started another (our second) Fresh Expression: a café style event with live entertainment on one Sunday evening per month.Vic and I were discussing today whether or not this can be regarded as 'church'. My argument is that in order for something  to be deemed church it needs to contain worship, communion and lead to baptism. At the moment, we only have one of those elements, although there is possibility for them to develop.

What do others think about the fine line between being church and not? Is any gathering 'church' or do some definite elements need to be present?

[clockman]

define 'lead to baptism'!  It certainly sounds to me like church. You will never know if it leads to baptism unless you can follow every person who come until they die.... As for worship and communion, I am sure both of those were there for at least some of you - communion was certainly there.... and if those of you who organised it did it as an act of worship then worship was definitely there as well!
Andrew

[Vic VDB]

One of my 'things' is that I think it sounds like church but I am aware that some people have 'churches' where what I see is merely a collection of people who come for a party and call themselves 'church' but are merely standing in the foyer!

For me, the baptism means a commitment and a buying in to the Christian message and I can see that just meeting isn't enough. I can also see that we have to be careful not to assume that we need to have the outer trappings, for again I know many who are baptised who don't live or do church!

An interesting question this . . going away to think more about it!

[paul]

I think that what you are describing is 'church', I guess the related question is whether it is 'a church'?

Fresh Expressions were originally meant to have the potential to mature into a fully fledged church, but it doesn't seem that many have. Most have become 'part' of an existing church, and you have to ask whether that is necessarily a bad thing? It gives the new work a level of support, encouragement, finance and resource that they are less likely to have if they branch off on their own.

We are quite likely to have this issue in my parishes shortly as our Church Army-funded Youth Project wants to use the Bishops Mission Order legislation to become a full blown 'youth church'. I'm a bit ambivalent about it myself. The reality is that this piece of work will NEVER become a self-supporting church. It will always need money poured into it from the Church Army or elsewhere. As for ever being able to contribute to the whole via the Share, that's a non-starter frankly.

Sometimes it seems that Fresh Expressions desire independence, but shy away from the responsiblities and commitments that this should arguably involve.

[Vic VDB]

I tend to regard Fresh Expressions as providing an opportunity for people to be church and to lead to something that can be viewed as a 'stand-alone' in that it can exist within its own parameters as an independent or additional fellowship.

I am always amazed that people want to be sponsored and supported yet regard themselves as independent. Cake and eat it appears to be the best description here.

I have seen very few (actually none when I think about it) fresh expressions mature into fully self-supporting stand-alone churches. Then again, I have always assumed they were a great way of extending the sphere of influence of a church in terms of people (or people groups) met and adding to their number.

Hey ho!

[WV]

define 'lead to baptism'!  It certainly sounds to me like church. You will never know if it leads to baptism unless you can follow every person who come until they die.... As for worship and communion, I am sure both of those were there for at least some of you - communion was certainly there.... and if those of you who organised it did it as an act of worship then worship was definitely there as well!
Andrew

By 'communion' I mean Eucharist - and no, it wasn't present, but could be in future meetings. The worship part was definitely there.

By 'lead to baptism' I mean those un-churched who attend should make the journey towards faith and  the 'outward sign' of it. In other words, as enjoyable as the evening was, we need to consider how we encourage more than just a Christian arts venue (not that there's anything wrong with that, but it's not what we're aiming at). I'm not expecting everyone who walks through the door to jump into the waters of baptism, but if it is 'church' then we should see that happening as part of the process.

[WV]

I guess the question for us is whether this 'Expression' is intended to mature into church. I tend to expect not... I think it's a means to introduce those who have no real knowledge of church  to Christian concepts in an unthreatening and attractive way, but that the ultimate out-working will be to encourage them into the main church if they find a relationship with Christ. I don't see that we could support it (financially and in terms of resources) any other way. It's a stepping stone. By that admission, I guess it doesn't fit in with the prescribed definition of Fresh Expression, but - as you say Paul - I'm not sure that's necessarily bad?

The main problem we have is man-power. Most of our new ventures rely on Vic and me; we need to be able to hand over leadership if this is ever to become a fully-fledged church. I think that's why I can't see it happening. That might change, but for now it's not an option and therefore the stepping stone approach is our best bet.

[clockman]

WV - sorry - I did indeed misinterpret your use of the word communion. I thought you were using it in the 'fellowship' sense - after all what about churches which major on Matins & Evensong with occasional Eucharists? I agree that the Eucharist is central to Christianity, but it doesn't have to be the standard (default) weekly service, so the fact that it wasn't celebrated that week does not (as you say) preclude it being in another week
As for leading to baptism, clearly I do not know how long this has been running, but a seed dropped into the soil by one person may well take several years and a few more seeds to be cast in that direction before it all comes together & that person gets baptised. Do not write it off too quickly! - As you say it is (at the very least) a stepping stone....
Andrew

[3 Gen Rev]

I know the frustration... most of the "fresh expressions" here are resourced by me and Debs... and it is hard at the moment to see how it could be handed on to the current congregation.
However I am finding a greater inter church exchange of resources and support and could easily see a larger ecumenical partnership taking greater use of the resources and growing, but not in an easliy defined way.

[WV]

Andy - oh no, I'm not writing it off at all. We've only had one so far and I have every expectation that it will develop and change. I'm using this medium to mull over the experience and look for potential weaknesses before they arise - plus I just wanted to start a discussion on a topic I'm particularly interested in As I said, I don't expect any instant conversions and view this as part of a package - hence the stepping stone approach.

Mark - we've tried the ecumenical approach and found it lacking so far.. but who knows? I agree that logically the sharing of resources is the best way forward. Maybe we can learn from your experience